7575 Van Buren Road, Baldwinsville, NY 13027
May 2008 Planning Board minutes
May 5, 2008
The Regular meeting of the Planning Board of the Town of Van Buren, held at the Town building, 7575 Van Buren Road, Baldwinsville, New York, was called to order at 7:00p.m.
Those present joined in the Pledge Allegiance to the Flag.
Roll Call: Harold Crandon present
James Virginia present
James Ruddock present
Eric Knapp present
Fred Thomas present
Norma Goodman present
Anthony Geiss, Chairman present
Also present: Brad Hunt, Attorney
Jim Billings, Town Engineer
Dave Pringle, Code Enforcement Officer
Vera Cavallaro, Planning Board Secretary
MINUTES:
Minutes were approved as is.
Motion Mr. Geiss asked the Board to entertain a motion to accept the April Minutes as written. Mr. Crandon moved to accept the motion, seconded by Mr. Knapp. There was no further discussion. Motion carried, unanimously on a roll call vote that follows:
Mr. Virginia yes
Mr. Thomas yes
Mr. Knapp yes
Mr. Crandon yes
Mr. Ruddock yes
Ms. Goodman yes
Mr. Geiss, Chairman yes
Mr. Geiss said that the public hearing for Sun Meadows Section III was not advertised properly in the Messenger, it was advertised as March 5 instead of May 5 therefore the wrong date was used so the Board can not proceed with the public hearing.
Mr. Geiss asked if there was anyone in the audience that wanted to speak to that public hearing.
No one spoke.
Motion 08-41 Mr. Geiss asked the Board to entertain a motion to call a public hearing for June 2, 2008 at 7:05pm for Sun Meadows Section 3 Tax Map ID #'s 033-04-02.1, 04.0 and 033.-05-01.0, 15. Mr. Thomas moved to accept the motion, seconded by Ms. Goodman. There was no further discussion. Motion carried, unanimously.
SUNMEADOWS SECTION 3 - PRELIMINARY PLOT CHANGES AMENDED
Tax Map ID #'s 033-04-02.1, 04.0 and 033.-05-01.0, 15.0
Mr. Bill Price was present to address the Board.
Mr. Price said in the last few weeks they have met with the Village and discussed the connection to Meigs Rd. which is at the East end of their property. They won't actually be building that far and they have a phase line just before that to get out to Meigs Rd. In discussions so far they have been looking at a contribution to improvements on Meigs Rd and they do need to finalize that negotiation and the Village Engineer has asked them to look at instead of a T intersection making that into a 200ft radius so that Meigs Rd and Cross Country Drive actually become one with no intersection. The engineers think that will probably work better and there are some issues with 911 with where does Meigs Rd stop and Cross Country Dr. begin so they have a minor issue with that. As for Syracuse Home they would be looking to take their southerly driveway
and bring it into the new alignment of road and then remove the final section of pavement that was East Sorrell Hill Rd before Route 690 came through and the last few lots on both the north and south side on Cross Country Dr would have to change their configuration as a result of that radius change. They will probably ask the Village to abandon that last section of road and half of that area would go to the Syracuse Home and the other half would go to them and likewise there would be a swap of land that they currently own that would have to go over to the Syracuse Home just because of that radius configuration but that is where they are in discussions with the Village.
Mr. Price said that they will also have an updated traffic study that they had done before the holiday week when the schools were out for B&L to review. He believes the overall SEQR asks for an updated traffic study and they have completed that.
The Board and the applicant discussed the new map and asked that the new map be advertised.
MCDONALDS - SITE PLAN MODIFICATION
2234 Downer St. Tax Map Parcel Id# 033.1-05-02.2
Mr. Chris Boyea and Mr. John Mason were present to address the Board.
Mr. Boyea said they are before the Board seeking a modification for the previously approved site plan. The approval that they previously received stated that when improvements occurred further down on Sun Meadows Way they would make some entrance configuration modifications and those improvements have occurred and it is time to make the modifications.
Mr. Boyea discussed the current traffic around the site and the new improvements and traffic draws in that area.
Mr. Boyea said when they went and looked at the site they were concerned for pedestrian and traffic safety if they were to put the new entrance where it was previously approved. That previously approved entrance calls for it to be closer to the intersection and when they looked at that the first thing that they noticed was the utility pole in the way but that was there before but since then a lot more utilities have been placed on that, it is very heavily utilized by phone, cable, power and everything else and things go underground at that point but they could move it so that wasn't the big issue.
Mr. Boyea said that McDonald's business is more drive-thru than sit down and they are more than 50% drive-thru so with that in mind when they were there on lunch time they noticed that cars were stacking all the way down the side of the building and during the peak time the cars would get near that entrance and stack out. That functions ok as it is today because there is a turn lane and people can stack in the road and nothing is impacted but if they were to put an entrance closer to the intersection that stacking would come out and hit the road and once that car hits the road the car would be impacting people at that intersection because the cars could no longer go because there is someone in the intersection with a signal light on waiting to get in. They understand that they need to modify the entrance for their original approval and what
they have come up with in meeting with Mr. Pringle and Mr. Stelter on site is that originally what they proposed was a right in and a right out but on the site Mr. Stelter and Mr. Pringle had some concerns about that right in and that it wasn't keeping with the initial intent that this Board approved.
Mr. Boyea said the plan before the Board today is just for the right out only and this will force all the traffic that is going to use McDonald's services to use Sun Meadows Way and that entrance will be at the back of Sun Meadows Way so they will have a long throat for cars away from the intersection and it also forces the traffic to stack all the way around the building which gives them much longer stacking. They will be doubling the amount of stacking now because all of the stacking will occur on their own property.
Mr. Boyea said the entrance modification on Downer St is keeping the existing entrance except they are going to put a mountable curb per DOT standards since this is a County road and it will have concrete behind it so tractor trailer delivery trucks can still ride up over the top of it and they will not end up with a ugly mud hole from the wheels riding over it all the time. They are going to be moving the entrance sign down to the corner so that everyone knows the entrance is down Sun Meadows. This is a very small modification and they filled out a short form SEQR and they are hoping to resolve the violation that they have now so they want to make sure that the Town understands that they are moving forward and are trying to do what is the best solution for this. They have a contractor lined up and they have called in underground utilities
and they are ready to go as soon as the Board is ok with the proposal.
Mr. Boyea said with the drive thru continuing to get busier they are interested in coming back and investing even more money into a new drive-thru layout which further increases the drive-thru stack and has two menu boards which will increase the speed of service but their first focus is to resolve the violation notice.
Mr. Virginia asked if they are going to stripe the pavement so that people understand that they are going to have to cue around the building because people will have the tendency to take a sharp left and cut off traffic trying to exit to Sun Meadows.
Mr. Boyea said the immediate plan would be to stripe that but they intend to both invest further and come in with the alternate plan.
Mr. Virginia said that he sees a lot more cars backing up on Sun Meadows with the first plan because people are going to be cutting across trying to get to the speaker not knowing that they have to go around the building to cue as opposed to the second plan where they clearly can't get to the drive-thru without going around the building.
Ms. Goodman asked if they will have plenty of signs indicating that people are to go around the building.
Mr. Boyea said yes.
Mr. Geiss said he looked at this with the right only going out with no entrance in and it didn't seem like it was significant enough of a turn to make sure that no one tried to sneak in there which he knows a lot of people would be doing; it looks like they are going to get a lot of left turns off of Downer St.
Mr. Billings said that was a comment made by the county as well and he thinks they would like a little more skewed driveway out so it prevents people from trying to make that turn.
Mr. Boyea said what they did to address the County's concerns is that they reduced the exit to 12ft making it less welcoming and they have also added some striping to further delineate anyone who is on Downer St from making that left turn in and the angle has been slightly adjusted at the end with the striping and the reason why it wasn't done with curbing is because of snow plowing and the wing plow that comes through, currently there are no curbs it is just asphalt to a grass swale so they have to be careful of where they can locate this and that is why the County said they could do it with striping.
Mr. Boyea said that there are signs also and they do believe that the County comments have all been addressed and if this Board wants to condition on approval on satisfying County DOT that would be fine.
Mr. Geiss asked how many do not enter signs will be there because on the plan he sees only one.
Mr. Boyea said there is one do not enter sign and one one-way sign and a no left turn sign as well.
The Board and the applicant discussed the height of the road signs.
Mr. Pringle said that Mr. Stelter wanted it moved more to the east in line with the drive-thru.
Mr. Boyea said that was one comment that he and Mr. Stelter agreed on the phone that probably was not necessary at this point but he did ask them to take a look at it.
Mr. Billings said that this has to go to County anyway.
Mr. Billings asked if the internal distribution would be one-way and signed as such because the striping in the winter is not really going to help much.
Mr. Boyea said that the internal distribution won't change from where it is today because it is all one way and they are going to keep it the same way which is counter clockwise.
Mr. Billings asked if there would be any more signs then are out there today.
Mr. Boyea said that they are not proposing anymore other than what is out there today and in what they are proposing they are not changing anything.
Mr. Billings said that if everyone is going to be coming in from the back he thinks it is more critical that they know that they will have to go all the way around the building.
Mr. Boyea said that there are no more signs in the lot and what they are proposing to do is move the entrance sign; the violation that they are under today is to resolve the entrance or access so the plan that is before the Board today is a plan that addresses the concern of the entrance and pulls all the traffic to the back and the entrance sign will be moved to show entrance is to the rear and that should address any concerns of entrance onto the property and impacting off site. On the site there is no change in circulation proposed and there are no additional signs proposed at this time to direct anyone on site because there is no change and they feel that everyone knows that pattern very well and it is laid out with angled parking and it is setup for counter clockwise. The second plan shows a further investment into the drive thru in the
back and they do want to proceed forward with that at this time with this application or next month but it clearly defines the travel path around the building.
The Board and the applicant discussed where the speakers would be, how that would force people to go around the building and the onsite circulation.
Mr. Boyea discussed the other McDonald's that are similar to what this one would be with the double drive-thru speakers and similar entrances.
The Board and the applicant discussed how the deliveries by tractor trailers would be coming in and out of the facility and came to the determination that the trucks would have to go east towards the Village.
The Pringle stated that DOT wants the driveway in the front to move more towards the east so that the delivery drivers would not have to go around the canopy.
Mr. Boyea said that the delivery truck would be able to go over the mountable curb and a car could not.
Mr. Geiss stated that if the mountable curb is there then everyone that can will try and get through it.
Mr. Geiss said if they lined the driveway up so that it is an exit only and if they push it over and make it more of a turn then a truck can get out and exit and that would be more of an emphasis of a right exit only.
Mr. Mason said that the County does not like turning movements where the driver is forced to look sharply back so if they can't make too much of an angle so the County wanted the curb to be enough so it forced the turn but not too much that it ends up losing that safety net.
Mr. Boyea said because this is a County DOT road, the County is going to require a highway work permit for this and they have worked with Mr. Stelter to resolve these issues and he thinks that Mr. Stelter has a comfort level and they know that they are going to need an approval letter from Mr. Stelter before this occurs and he knows that DOT and County Highway have resolved these issues before and they have certainly worked with those agencies before and being that it is the County's road he thinks the County has the expertise for this and he believes that they have a plan that the County DOT is satisfied with at this point with the concerns that the Board is talking about and he would be happy to get a letter from Mr. Stelter supporting the plan or any modifications to it and as indicated this plan is revised per the County DOT comments.
Mr. Geiss said early conversations with the DOT that the Board has had stated that they needed to move the driveway over and now the applicant is saying something different.
Mr. Boyea said he believes that after talking about this and narrowing the entrance Mr. Stelter is satisfied and he will get a letter from Mr. Stelter.
The Board discussed the mountable curb being used at other facilities and how they are going to keep other people from going over it.
Mr. Boyea said that it is a 6in curb and it is fairly common for a right in/right out exit.
Mr. Billings said that the curb is common practice but not on a site like this necessarily but it is very commonly used in road construction but it does allow a truck to make a left and the Town doesn't want the truck to make a left.
Mr. Ruddock said that the truck could back into that slot to unload then if the truck were to try to get off the site and get into Sun Meadows Way the truck could make the turn and back out the other way but as the truck starts to make the swing the rear wheels of the trailer are going to take out that island and he would give the truck the island and two parking spaces and stripe it so then the truck comes out and the truck is at a light and can go whichever way the truck wants. He would rather see them give up a couple parking spaces and that green space then to mess around with which way the truck is going to go because the truck is going to go whichever way that the truck wants to go and that way it would clean that up in the front end.
Mr. Boyea said that it is certainly something that they can pursue but the distance in the back would not allow a 62ft eighteen wheeler.
Mr. Billings said that he can see that the truck will not physically be able to make that turn because there is not enough distance between the driving lane on site and Sun Meadows Way to make that turn but he is still not sure that going the other way is the best consideration either.
The Board discussed the truck exiting McDonald's.
Mr. Boyea said that they are not changing the current delivery path and to date they are not aware of any accidents from the delivery truck for either pedestrians or the delivery truck itself and it seems to function well.
Mr. Geiss discussed the comments that came from the public at the Downer St Corridor Meeting.
Mr. Billings asked how many delivery trucks are there in a day.
Mr. Boyea said that they are usually twice a week and they come at different times because the trucks go on a route.
Mr. Virginia asked why they can't move the exit east and sacrifice the two parking spots and put a more curve to it and put a higher curb on Downer St. to prevent people from coming in, if they want the truck to exit they should bring the truck in the rear and then line the truck up so the truck has a straight shot coming out to the east and then just cut the curb higher and that prevents anyone from coming in and trying to get into the traffic flow.
Mr. Boyea said that is something that they could do and the reason why they haven't is because they have an existing entrance that functions today and they are trying to work with that entrance and the County thought that was appropriate and if they wanted to move in the direction that Mr. Virginia just mentioned he doesn't believe the County would have an issue with it but what they are trying to do at this point is work with the existing entrance.
Mr. Virginia said that they are so close to a traffic signal and there is a lot of congestion there and to him the best solution is line the truck up so it doesn't take out the canopy and get the truck set so the truck has to do minimal things and the truck will have sight distances both ways and the truck will have more sight distance to the intersection if this is moved east and yes it is more of an expense but it is the best solution for everyone and then they can make the curb higher on the west side to prevent traffic from coming in there and using that as an entrance.
Mr. Boyea said that is something they can consider if that is something the Board would like them to move forward with.
Mr. Billings said that the Town doesn't want the truck to take a left out of there.
Mr. Boyea said that the truck doesn't have to but what was designed here if the truck were to do that it wouldn't tear up the lawn.
Mr. Billings said that he is not concerned about the lawn he is concerned about the traffic.
Mr. Boyea said the entrance down at the end would resolve that because the truck wouldn't need to take a left because there would be easy access to take a right and turn wherever the truck saw fit.
The Board and the applicant discussed the truck exiting and taking a right only.
Mr. Mason said part of the advantage of having the truck go out the front is right now they have pushed a lot of the concentration of everything that is happening in this property to the back and they would like to come back to the Board to facilitate drive-thru operations and the back is their only entrance to the site now and now if the Board is going to force the tractor trailer to also go out the back from his perspective is not going to be good but to have the truck go out the front way would be best with everything else happening in the back.
Mr. Geiss said to come out the front he thinks that they need to align the exit so the truck only goes toward the Village to the east with no left turn on Downer St.
Mr. Mason said they can do that.
Mr. Crandon, the Board and the applicant discussed a pass for automobiles in the back for McDonald's and Dunkin Donuts.
The Board and the applicant discussed not rushing the application to find the best possible solution and having Mr. Pringle put McDonald's violation on a stay as long as they are in front of the Board working on the exit.
The Board asked the applicant to come back with a revised exit and the drive-thru expansion plans showing the wheel path.
Motion 08-42 Mr. Geiss asked the Board to entertain a motion to table the review of McDonald's until new submittals are received. Mr. Thomas moved to accept the motion, seconded by Ms. Goodman. There was no further discussion. Motion carried, unanimously.
CYN PROPERTIES, LLC - SITE PLAN
2273 Downer St Tax Map Parcel Id# 034-04-04
Mr. Jim Giancola was present to address the Board.
The Board discussed where the property was located on Downer St.
Mr. Giancola said that he is looking to convert dwelling to a professional office. The preliminary plan that is in front of the Board now are just concepts that they have talked about because they know that there would be issues of parking and other things. He did go to the Downer St Corridor meeting and listened to the public comments so in speaking with the engineer they thought that the concept of bringing in a road to access the parking lot in the rear was something that the Board probably didn't want to see because it would be a road parallel to the ball field road with an exit and entrance right next to each other and from a safety perspective he doesn't know if he would want that either.
The Board discussed the setbacks on the property.
Mr. Geiss said that the parking is close to the road with a lot of room in the back of the lot.
Mr. Giancola said that there is a septic tank and leach fields and they are trying to plan for future development of the back of the lot.
The Board and the applicant discussed what type of future development might occur in the back of the lot.
Mr. Geiss said the Board also needs to look at buffering the residence that is next door and the applicant is proposing some of the parking in the setback area.
Mr. Giancola said that they could put the parking on the other side using the existing driveway cut because they only need about 4 cars worth of parking for his real estate office or professional office for insurance or that type of business.
Mr. Billings asked if the parking could be moved to the back of the building.
Mr. Giancola said that it appears that the leach field is back there but he did find a manhole cover behind the old pharmacy but he hasn't been able to get that company to call him back that owns that.
Mr. Billings asked which side the adjacent houses driveway is on.
Mr. Giancola said it would be right next to his proposed driveway.
Mr. Billings asked if they have talked to County about the proposed driveway.
Mr. Giancola said no.
Mr. Billings said that they might want to do that just in case County objects.
The Board discussed the applicant bringing the sewer to the property.
Mr. Giancola said that he doesn't anticipate tons of volume coming in and out of there, it will mainly be him and maybe a couple of agents but he could come in on the other side and put the parking in the back but he was concerned about the ball field but that might work since the driveway is already there.
Mr. Geiss said that no new structure could be closer than 50ft with the setback.
Mr. Giancola said that could work because he could make it stagger on the existing building but it doesn't have to be attached as long as it fits within the setbacks.
Mr. Geiss said the applicant should find out exactly where the leach field is before the parking is laid out.
The Board and the applicant discussed where the applicant thinks the existing septic and leach fields are in the back of the property.
Mr. Geiss asked what the buffer is between local business and residential and if multiple buildings are allowed.
Mr. Pringle said that the applicant will have to provide a fence and multiple buildings are also allowed with site plan approval.
Mr. Geiss asked that the applicant do more research on parking behind the building whether they use the existing driveway or putting a drive in on the other side.
The Board discussed landscaping along the road, possible future sidewalks and the buffer between the buildings.
Mr. Billings said that they are going to need to go to County DOT for the use change of the driveway.
The Board asked that the applicant come in with a formal site plan application, site plan, lighting, landscaping, drainage, signage plans and driveway approval.
HEADRUSH INC - SIGNAGE
3417 Walters Rd Tax map Parcel Id# 055-04-02.1
Mr. Jake Wright was present to address the Board.
Mr. Wright said the biggest weakness of their site is visibility from people trying to get there. He had a sign approved 3 or 4 years ago right where this one is and what they are trying to do is have the sign at the level of the water tower because it goes up over that hill as people are coming from the west into the city they are kind of climbing up over that hill and if they can get the sign to the elevation where they are over that hill then they would have the visibility enough where people would catch it for a much longer period of time.
Mr. Geiss asked if the sign is in the National Grid right of way.
Mr. Wright said no, he owns a sliver of land between the Thruway and the National Grid power line.
Mr. Geiss said if they were to go to that height are there any restrictions on getting close to that power line.
Mr. Wright said that he would talk to National Grid.
Mr. Geiss said that they need to get National Grid approval and the Thruway and they are also going to need a height variance and a variance for square footage from the ZBA.
The Board discussed off-site signage with the applicant.
Mr. Pringle said that DOT is going to be putting up some road signs coming off of Route 690, Van Buren Rd and Brickyard Rd and there are going to be arrows on how to get to Walters Rd. The signs will show just street names not business names.
The Board discussed the billboards that have been put up in other parts of the County and how good the restaurant is performing.
The Board discussed parking for the restaurant and what the applicant has planned for the future of the parcels that he owns.
The Board asked that the applicant bring back the color scheme for the sign also.
OTHER BUSINESS
Mr. Thomas announced that Ms. Goodman received the women of the year award.
ADJOURNMENT
Motion
Mr. Geiss called for a Motion to adjourn at 8:57 p.m. Ms. Goodman moved to accept the motion, seconded by Mr. Ruddock. There was no further discussion. Motion carried, unanimously.
Respectfully Submitted,
Vera Cavallaro
Planning Board Secretary
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